Hey! This is issue #4 of the Sheila Heti Summer Slow Read, a five month journey through the novel Motherhood. New episodes drop every Sunday from May-September, 20 issues in total. If you want to start at the beginning or read more about what the hell we’re doing here, head on over to issue #1.
Woweeeeeee! Today’s guest is my very own boyfriend/husband, Paul (41, Taurus, chaos demon, would prefer not to have children but maintains his position is still “open” which came as a shock to me honestly!)
Let me just say: I had to cut about 30 minutes from this episode because Paul is my favorite person on the planet to talk to, and even our tangents have tangents. Our second date was a six hour Zoom call, so I can’t act like I’m surprised we blew over our 45 minute target by several counties. Even with everything that got left on the cutting room floor (we got into a whole thing about environmentalism and AI and the end of the world that I will spare you from), Paul would like me to warn everyone that some of his opinions are very strong and there’s definitely a tinge of darkness to some of our conversation. Some of you may agree 1000% with him, some of you may vehemently disagree, all reactions are valid!
I’m not exaggerating or being cute when I say that I fell in love with Paul first because of his mind, and then his heart. I think you’ll see both on display in this episode (although I did not get him to cry, which is on me. I’m sorry. I did try!!) He may have some controversial opinions and hot takes, and obviously I’m biased, but it’s my opinion that if the world had more men like Paul in it, we’d be a whole hell of a lot better off than we are now. We talk about Paul’s ovaries in this episode and just to be clear ~ we’re kidding ~ but it became an inside joke because Paul is one million percent allergic to toxic masculinity and so am I. (Sorry, he’s taken!!!)
#4. I would have invented boyfriends (page 41)
“When I was younger, thinking about whether I wanted children, I always come back to this formula: if no one had told me anything about the world, I would have invented boyfriends. I would have invented sex, friendships, art. I would not have invented child-rearing. I would have had to invent all those other things to fulfill real longings in me, but if no one had ever told me that a person could create a person, and raise them into a citizen, it wouldn’t have occurred to me as something to do. In fact, it would have sounded like a task to very much avoid.
Not that it really matters, the question of what my authentic or original desire might be. I know a person can enjoy things they never thought they would, and regret terribly things they wanted very much, or can come to want things they didn’t want before.” – Sheila Heti, Motherhood
Here’s the navigation through our turbulent waters:
0:45 – Introductions
2:20 – Reading/discussing the prompt (page 41) and how Paul went very contrarian the first time we talked about this
7:15 – Paul’s tough childhood, bad parenting, and how it informs his feelings on not wanting kids
11:40 – “Baby lust,” the innocence of childhood, and some dark shit about the world
20:35 – The story of Paul’s breakup with an ex who wanted children during a couples therapy session in his early 30s
28:30 – It’s the biggest decision you can make, but “it’s just what you do”
33:40 – Navigating future regret
38:00 – Is there any overlap with having a baby and getting a puppy? (Is a puppy a good test-drive for a baby if you’re not sure?)
45:00 – Where do you get your life’s meaning?
47:30 – Paul’s advice for anyone who is still on the fence or at odds with their partner on the decision whether or not to have kids
51:55 – Some final thoughts about empathy
