oh man, back in december i went on this amazing surprise birthday trip for a friend, and i was the only child free/unmarried person there! every conversation devolved into husbands or children, lol. honestly, i admire you for not turning towards your nephews anymore, because i found myself using my best friend’s anecdotes (she’s a mother of two) to fit in. the thing they asked me about the most was my career, which is interesting (they are all working mothers with great careers too).
i genuinely want to be a part of raising the next generation (i mentor girls on mountain bikes, i plan to get my MLIS to be a school librarian) so i find it fascinating that we solely focus on the PARENT aspect of things, rather than the other necessary roles that make it all work. i was chatting with my best friend and her husband about how i feel that everyone’s kids are my kids, and i feel like maybe we’ve lost sight of that— the communal responsibility of raising kids. growing up, i had a lot of childfree neighbors now that i think about it, and i was always over at their houses while they taught me to drink tea and play scrabble and watch movies. i wouldn’t be who i am without those women.
I'm 39 and CFBC, but sometimes I still get a twinge of....something - sadness-ish? - especially when I get invites to baby showers. I don't know what it is. I got an invite to one being thrown for my youngest SIL and since she's coming from out of town, another group is going to throw her a SECOND shower that same weekend, and I just can't. I'm halfway thinking about picking up a couple of work shifts all that weekend just to have an out and not have to go to either. I know my SIL will understand the real reason I don't want to go to them, but I don't want to have to make up an excuse for my MIL and the rest of the family. Sorry to dump in the comments section, I'm just grateful you're always writing about this topic!!
Also child free by choice, and for me, the twinge of 'something' is a kind of mild sadness that there is this thing that SO MANY PEOPLE want, and I simply, strongly, inherently, do not.
Like, I am not at all sad that I don't have children, I have never for a minute wanted a life with children, and I am actually really grateful that I don't. I feel like my life is and will continue to be better - certainly easier - without being a parent, but I think because I feel so strongly about this, it is like an isolating... disbelief... that there are so many people that WOULD want this thing.
i totally get this feeling!!! my fiance pretty adamantly does not want kids (and i do not want to raise them with someone who isn’t 100% in) and it’s never been a hell yes for me (which in my book is a no), but sometimes there’s a tiny ache. i love my life, i love my choices, and maybe it’s just weird biological FOMO. i realized once that i had saved all my favorite childhood books, and i asked myself why? was it subconsciously for my future kids?
I never really thought about the conversations I jump into at baby showers, but I almost always talk about my nieces and nephews. I'm going to practice your method next time because I don't really need to have a soundbite about birth or sleep training.
Also, I just grabbed The Husbands from our neighborhood little free library and it's next up on my list :)
I don't know if it's better (lol) but not talking about my nephews has certainly been interesting! (Not just at baby showers, either, just in regular conversation.) It's definitely a challenge, like can I still engage in conversation without them, or do I just say absolutely nothing?
Urgh Kelly I FELT like this! I’m also CFBC, 35. I rely on anecdotes about my niece SO MUCH and I didn’t realise until I just read this! What is the answer, though? It’s such a tricky one. Do I just sit out of those parts of the conversation? What do I do when it’s 90% of the event?
I really wanted to love husbands - I get the hype but it was just missing something for me… maybe it’s that I found her so self absorbed and it was a mirror, LOL!
Thanks for this post! And I’m so glad I get to comment :) although we have different POV’s I always like hearing yours. I’ve been trying to conceive for 4 years and it has not been going well. I similarly struggle big time at baby showers. Can’t there just be co-ed parties instead? Anyways, I wanted to add to that woman’s egg freezing comment, because it’s NOT an insurance policy! Women are fed this false marketing for too long and I hope to help dispel it. The survival rate after thawing frozen eggs is incredibly low. Freezing embryos is the true insurance policy, but obviously that’s more complicated for single women. I told my husband if I hadn’t met him maybe I would’ve gone and gotten donor sperm to make embryos (he didn’t think this was palatable to a future partner, but I think it’s empowering for women who want children). I wrote more on this topic and related topic of when IVF does not work, if anyone wants to read:
Yes! Success rates of freezing embryos or sperm are unfortunately much greater for a future viable pregnancy than eggs.
This may be about where I live than anything (Atlanta), along with my husband and I both being around forty, but I truly think we have no friends who are CFBC. Some who are unpartnered or who struggle with fertility, but that’s it. The number of people who secretly think like JD Vance, consciously or unconsciously, is so disheartening. And people also often feel insecure when people make different choices than them.
The only baby showers I have been to have been virtual, my own was virtual due to Covid, so this was interesting to read.
I think it’s bizarre & misguided to casually insist that women freeze their eggs! Yikes! On the other hand, I’ve supported many friends through painful infertility, so if there is a solution that could spare people from that pain, I get why someone would recommend it.
Ahhh this resonates. Story on the same theme, I am wondering if you have encountered this or have similar feelings:
I attended a friend's BBQ, and it was mostly a group of friends-of-friends who are great and I have loved catching up with from time to time. They all brought their kids to the BBQ, so there was a significant amount of 1-3 year olds there. They (the adults) are so lovely and seemed genuinely enthusiastic to ask my husband and I questions about what's new in our life, but we would get 2 words out only to be met with a "ugh - sorry - Will!! We don't eat things off the floor - put that down! - sorry what were you saying?" I would get 2 more words in, and then "Alice!!! Don't pull the doggy's tail, you know that! Sorry, keep going!" Repeat ad nausaum for hours.
I had later asked some of my closest girlfriends with kids what the right etiquette is here. Are these busy parents asking me questions just to be polite? Do they want my real answers? Or is a "Things have been great, thanks!" type of response more manageable. My girlfriends all agreed "Omg no!! We desperately want to chat, we are so in need of meaningful adult conversations, we have just accepted that catch-up conversations with kids around are going to take 30 times as long".
And this brings me to my conflict: I want to attend events like these, because I love being with my friends, and their friends! While I don't particularly enjoy the company of children, I also don't want to be perceived as a witch that says "I'm only coming if your family isn't". Nor do I want to further any kind of 'us vs them' divide, but also..... We had such a miserable time. Why spend time doing things that are awful? To my husband, being asked questions and then being interrupted each time you try to answer them is like a mortal conversational sin... lol. So we both dread events like these. Do I just put up with it until the kids are old enough to... not be there, or are at least old enough that they don't demand so much of everyones time and attention? Am I terrible?
You're not terrible!! I feel like in this situation something I've learned is that the parents are often having just as bad of a time with the constant interruptions. Only you can decide whether it's worth it to keep going to events like these BUT I think it's helped me a lot remembering that the parents of the kid who is running around hate it too, they really do want to sit down and talk!
No I totally get it. I feel the same. I turn up and I get that they can’t help it, but it’s so frustrating! I dont know what the answer is! Do you have many friends without kids? I hate it but I definitely find myself gravitating to them more, now
My dear, you need to find friends who don’t have kids.
You need to understand that a person’s child is a part of WHO THEY ARE, and simply waiting it out till the kid is more mature to be tolerable to you is actually missing out on your friends LIFE.
You wouldn’t recuse yourself from a friends who is going through an illness or a death in their family or some other thing that is hard to see/deal with/tolerate, just to pop back in their life when they are more fun to you and your adult conversations. Besides being a terrible friend, you actually wouldn’t be able to say you understand or know your friend as you missed out on the parts of their life that are defining to them. I am not comparing children to a death in the family but I mean to say that children shape and change a person in a way that any major life event would.
If you are so self centered that you can’t stomach the chaotic nature of socializing with children, the answer is very clear—- you’re actually not friends with these people and you need to only find friends without kids moving forward.
karafaye, I'm going to leave this comment here for now as a reminder of how child-free people are often really harshly judged. I hope that next time you'll take a moment before commenting something like this, but in the future, this is the kind of comment I'll delete. x
Out of genuine curiosity— why do you think a CFBC person is being judged in this scenario?
I can tell you I have absolutely no judgement towards someone without kids. That was me and what I thought my life was going to be for many years, and I love hearing peoples thought process on why they decide they do or don’t want kids. The judgement in my response comes rather from the idea that you can be invited to a party, know there is kids there, know you’re gonna have a bad time, have said bad time, and then be confused by the interaction. I don’t care that you don’t have kids. But don’t expect to be friends with me if you can’t spend time with my kid, too.
If you’re lucky enough that your friend is willing to spend all of their time they have away from their kids (I.e when other childcare is available), that’s awesome for you. But I really don’t think that most people with kids are going to prioritize a person who won’t make an effort for them.
Hey karafaye, I understand this can be an emotional topic, and thank you for your apology, even if it wasn't for me. I'm going to try to explain my POV and reasoning in the most respectful way possible:
This newsletter is focused primarily on the experience of child-free people and those who aren't yet decided, and how we navigate the world and our friendships. I am not a person who is interested in dumping all of my friends when they have children. I think most people here would agree. I can love my friends and make an effort to show up for them without judging them, and still feel a little weird at a party where everything is about kids. My experience is valid. I can also expect my friends with kids to be respectful of me and try to understand my experience in return, and they are. They do. You said "if you're so self-centered that you can't stomach the chaotic nature of socializing with children, you need to only find friends without kids moving forward." This isn't it. This isn't the solution. It's also a harsh thing to say to someone who is making a different choice than you. Calling child-free people self-centered is the oldest insult there is. If I said to you, "if you're so self-centered that your entire existence revolves around your kids, you should only be friends with people who are exactly the same as you," wouldn't that kind of hurt your feelings? I really think we would be a lot worse off as people and as women if we only seek out the company of people exactly like ourselves. Why not try to be open and curious and bridge the gap between people who are different? Why not try to meet people with respect and understanding instead of anger or annoyance or judgement?
You also said, "my dear, you need to find friends who don't have kids." This is prescriptive and condescending. I hope this is a phrase you'll consider taking out of your vocabulary in the future. It's hurtful. It doesn't feel good. You didn't say it to me, but it felt like you did. As if this isn't something I've heard before.
The point of this newsletter is not to demonize the other side. Ever. It's to start conversations and share stories and experiences and learn. If you're down with that, great. Happy for you to be here and a part of the discussion. If not, I don't know if this is the right space for you. x
not exactly the same, but this reminds me of a baby shower I went to, in which all of the people there wanted to talk to me about my upcoming wedding instead of the MFA I had recently completed. talking about storytelling/things I had written/something I had accomplished *on my own* was apparently not as interesting as discussing wedding plans? maybe it’s just me, but I will take discussing character and theme over flower arrangements and table logistics any day. these were all brilliant women I had known since high school and I left feeling so, so disappointed.
I can relate to this feeling! I would have asked you about your MFA. Congrats!
I ghosted a book club earlier this year because the women in it only wanted to talk surface level. They actually came to rely on my hard-hitting discussion questions, but I bounced after one night they got very pearl clutching with a book that had many sex scenes. It made me realize my other book club was more my speed.
Congrats on the relaunch! One of the things that’s always stuck out to me about your newsletter oddly enough is your sign off. I’m curious why you always sign off with “k bye”. I think one of the things I most crave in newsletters and online spaces is connection and community, and it always leaves me feeling a little …off? when the newsletter ends in that terse way. Curious to hear your thoughts.
I think of it as balancing the vulnerability of the post! You never know where your online work lands with others and it is always a risk putting yourself out there. I find it endearing!
I think this would deepen the “us vs. them” narrative which is not something I want; my friendships are extremely important to me, and many (most) of my friends have or want kids! My love language is quality time :)
Yes…I understand. I only said that because it is natural that the conversations at a shower will center around baby topics. Not that you can’t or won’t participate or enjoy those topics, but I’m sure you could find many ways to support friends and be involved in their baby-focused circumstances!
oh man, back in december i went on this amazing surprise birthday trip for a friend, and i was the only child free/unmarried person there! every conversation devolved into husbands or children, lol. honestly, i admire you for not turning towards your nephews anymore, because i found myself using my best friend’s anecdotes (she’s a mother of two) to fit in. the thing they asked me about the most was my career, which is interesting (they are all working mothers with great careers too).
i genuinely want to be a part of raising the next generation (i mentor girls on mountain bikes, i plan to get my MLIS to be a school librarian) so i find it fascinating that we solely focus on the PARENT aspect of things, rather than the other necessary roles that make it all work. i was chatting with my best friend and her husband about how i feel that everyone’s kids are my kids, and i feel like maybe we’ve lost sight of that— the communal responsibility of raising kids. growing up, i had a lot of childfree neighbors now that i think about it, and i was always over at their houses while they taught me to drink tea and play scrabble and watch movies. i wouldn’t be who i am without those women.
Oh I love this so much and I totally agree
Loved this! Such a good point!
I'm 39 and CFBC, but sometimes I still get a twinge of....something - sadness-ish? - especially when I get invites to baby showers. I don't know what it is. I got an invite to one being thrown for my youngest SIL and since she's coming from out of town, another group is going to throw her a SECOND shower that same weekend, and I just can't. I'm halfway thinking about picking up a couple of work shifts all that weekend just to have an out and not have to go to either. I know my SIL will understand the real reason I don't want to go to them, but I don't want to have to make up an excuse for my MIL and the rest of the family. Sorry to dump in the comments section, I'm just grateful you're always writing about this topic!!
I totally understand! I think this sadness-ish twinge is really normal and more CFBC people have it than you may assume!
Also child free by choice, and for me, the twinge of 'something' is a kind of mild sadness that there is this thing that SO MANY PEOPLE want, and I simply, strongly, inherently, do not.
Like, I am not at all sad that I don't have children, I have never for a minute wanted a life with children, and I am actually really grateful that I don't. I feel like my life is and will continue to be better - certainly easier - without being a parent, but I think because I feel so strongly about this, it is like an isolating... disbelief... that there are so many people that WOULD want this thing.
i totally get this feeling!!! my fiance pretty adamantly does not want kids (and i do not want to raise them with someone who isn’t 100% in) and it’s never been a hell yes for me (which in my book is a no), but sometimes there’s a tiny ache. i love my life, i love my choices, and maybe it’s just weird biological FOMO. i realized once that i had saved all my favorite childhood books, and i asked myself why? was it subconsciously for my future kids?
Oh Kate I’d be the same! Sorry but I am not attending a second shower 🙄
I never really thought about the conversations I jump into at baby showers, but I almost always talk about my nieces and nephews. I'm going to practice your method next time because I don't really need to have a soundbite about birth or sleep training.
Also, I just grabbed The Husbands from our neighborhood little free library and it's next up on my list :)
I don't know if it's better (lol) but not talking about my nephews has certainly been interesting! (Not just at baby showers, either, just in regular conversation.) It's definitely a challenge, like can I still engage in conversation without them, or do I just say absolutely nothing?
Urgh Kelly I FELT like this! I’m also CFBC, 35. I rely on anecdotes about my niece SO MUCH and I didn’t realise until I just read this! What is the answer, though? It’s such a tricky one. Do I just sit out of those parts of the conversation? What do I do when it’s 90% of the event?
I really wanted to love husbands - I get the hype but it was just missing something for me… maybe it’s that I found her so self absorbed and it was a mirror, LOL!
I have NO idea what the answer is, honestly! Still wondering that myself!
Adding that book to cart immediately!! I'm about 95% positive I don't want kids, but there's still that 5% that is uncertain.
Let me know what you think of it!
Thanks for this post! And I’m so glad I get to comment :) although we have different POV’s I always like hearing yours. I’ve been trying to conceive for 4 years and it has not been going well. I similarly struggle big time at baby showers. Can’t there just be co-ed parties instead? Anyways, I wanted to add to that woman’s egg freezing comment, because it’s NOT an insurance policy! Women are fed this false marketing for too long and I hope to help dispel it. The survival rate after thawing frozen eggs is incredibly low. Freezing embryos is the true insurance policy, but obviously that’s more complicated for single women. I told my husband if I hadn’t met him maybe I would’ve gone and gotten donor sperm to make embryos (he didn’t think this was palatable to a future partner, but I think it’s empowering for women who want children). I wrote more on this topic and related topic of when IVF does not work, if anyone wants to read:
https://open.substack.com/pub/jacquiesmusings/p/when-ivf-does-not-work?r=i2abq&utm_medium=ios
Thank you so much for this Jacquie!
Yes! Success rates of freezing embryos or sperm are unfortunately much greater for a future viable pregnancy than eggs.
This may be about where I live than anything (Atlanta), along with my husband and I both being around forty, but I truly think we have no friends who are CFBC. Some who are unpartnered or who struggle with fertility, but that’s it. The number of people who secretly think like JD Vance, consciously or unconsciously, is so disheartening. And people also often feel insecure when people make different choices than them.
Bought the baby decision book before finishing the rest of the newsletter!!
The only baby showers I have been to have been virtual, my own was virtual due to Covid, so this was interesting to read.
I think it’s bizarre & misguided to casually insist that women freeze their eggs! Yikes! On the other hand, I’ve supported many friends through painful infertility, so if there is a solution that could spare people from that pain, I get why someone would recommend it.
Ahhh this resonates. Story on the same theme, I am wondering if you have encountered this or have similar feelings:
I attended a friend's BBQ, and it was mostly a group of friends-of-friends who are great and I have loved catching up with from time to time. They all brought their kids to the BBQ, so there was a significant amount of 1-3 year olds there. They (the adults) are so lovely and seemed genuinely enthusiastic to ask my husband and I questions about what's new in our life, but we would get 2 words out only to be met with a "ugh - sorry - Will!! We don't eat things off the floor - put that down! - sorry what were you saying?" I would get 2 more words in, and then "Alice!!! Don't pull the doggy's tail, you know that! Sorry, keep going!" Repeat ad nausaum for hours.
I had later asked some of my closest girlfriends with kids what the right etiquette is here. Are these busy parents asking me questions just to be polite? Do they want my real answers? Or is a "Things have been great, thanks!" type of response more manageable. My girlfriends all agreed "Omg no!! We desperately want to chat, we are so in need of meaningful adult conversations, we have just accepted that catch-up conversations with kids around are going to take 30 times as long".
And this brings me to my conflict: I want to attend events like these, because I love being with my friends, and their friends! While I don't particularly enjoy the company of children, I also don't want to be perceived as a witch that says "I'm only coming if your family isn't". Nor do I want to further any kind of 'us vs them' divide, but also..... We had such a miserable time. Why spend time doing things that are awful? To my husband, being asked questions and then being interrupted each time you try to answer them is like a mortal conversational sin... lol. So we both dread events like these. Do I just put up with it until the kids are old enough to... not be there, or are at least old enough that they don't demand so much of everyones time and attention? Am I terrible?
You're not terrible!! I feel like in this situation something I've learned is that the parents are often having just as bad of a time with the constant interruptions. Only you can decide whether it's worth it to keep going to events like these BUT I think it's helped me a lot remembering that the parents of the kid who is running around hate it too, they really do want to sit down and talk!
No I totally get it. I feel the same. I turn up and I get that they can’t help it, but it’s so frustrating! I dont know what the answer is! Do you have many friends without kids? I hate it but I definitely find myself gravitating to them more, now
My dear, you need to find friends who don’t have kids.
You need to understand that a person’s child is a part of WHO THEY ARE, and simply waiting it out till the kid is more mature to be tolerable to you is actually missing out on your friends LIFE.
You wouldn’t recuse yourself from a friends who is going through an illness or a death in their family or some other thing that is hard to see/deal with/tolerate, just to pop back in their life when they are more fun to you and your adult conversations. Besides being a terrible friend, you actually wouldn’t be able to say you understand or know your friend as you missed out on the parts of their life that are defining to them. I am not comparing children to a death in the family but I mean to say that children shape and change a person in a way that any major life event would.
If you are so self centered that you can’t stomach the chaotic nature of socializing with children, the answer is very clear—- you’re actually not friends with these people and you need to only find friends without kids moving forward.
karafaye, I'm going to leave this comment here for now as a reminder of how child-free people are often really harshly judged. I hope that next time you'll take a moment before commenting something like this, but in the future, this is the kind of comment I'll delete. x
Out of genuine curiosity— why do you think a CFBC person is being judged in this scenario?
I can tell you I have absolutely no judgement towards someone without kids. That was me and what I thought my life was going to be for many years, and I love hearing peoples thought process on why they decide they do or don’t want kids. The judgement in my response comes rather from the idea that you can be invited to a party, know there is kids there, know you’re gonna have a bad time, have said bad time, and then be confused by the interaction. I don’t care that you don’t have kids. But don’t expect to be friends with me if you can’t spend time with my kid, too.
If you’re lucky enough that your friend is willing to spend all of their time they have away from their kids (I.e when other childcare is available), that’s awesome for you. But I really don’t think that most people with kids are going to prioritize a person who won’t make an effort for them.
But all that being said, I admit my first comment was pretty rude and I am sorry for my tone, C Ro.
Hey karafaye, I understand this can be an emotional topic, and thank you for your apology, even if it wasn't for me. I'm going to try to explain my POV and reasoning in the most respectful way possible:
This newsletter is focused primarily on the experience of child-free people and those who aren't yet decided, and how we navigate the world and our friendships. I am not a person who is interested in dumping all of my friends when they have children. I think most people here would agree. I can love my friends and make an effort to show up for them without judging them, and still feel a little weird at a party where everything is about kids. My experience is valid. I can also expect my friends with kids to be respectful of me and try to understand my experience in return, and they are. They do. You said "if you're so self-centered that you can't stomach the chaotic nature of socializing with children, you need to only find friends without kids moving forward." This isn't it. This isn't the solution. It's also a harsh thing to say to someone who is making a different choice than you. Calling child-free people self-centered is the oldest insult there is. If I said to you, "if you're so self-centered that your entire existence revolves around your kids, you should only be friends with people who are exactly the same as you," wouldn't that kind of hurt your feelings? I really think we would be a lot worse off as people and as women if we only seek out the company of people exactly like ourselves. Why not try to be open and curious and bridge the gap between people who are different? Why not try to meet people with respect and understanding instead of anger or annoyance or judgement?
You also said, "my dear, you need to find friends who don't have kids." This is prescriptive and condescending. I hope this is a phrase you'll consider taking out of your vocabulary in the future. It's hurtful. It doesn't feel good. You didn't say it to me, but it felt like you did. As if this isn't something I've heard before.
The point of this newsletter is not to demonize the other side. Ever. It's to start conversations and share stories and experiences and learn. If you're down with that, great. Happy for you to be here and a part of the discussion. If not, I don't know if this is the right space for you. x
what a judgmental response to an honest and vulnerable question!
That’s such a rude response! This is meant to be a safe space - disappointing
not exactly the same, but this reminds me of a baby shower I went to, in which all of the people there wanted to talk to me about my upcoming wedding instead of the MFA I had recently completed. talking about storytelling/things I had written/something I had accomplished *on my own* was apparently not as interesting as discussing wedding plans? maybe it’s just me, but I will take discussing character and theme over flower arrangements and table logistics any day. these were all brilliant women I had known since high school and I left feeling so, so disappointed.
I can relate to this feeling! I would have asked you about your MFA. Congrats!
I ghosted a book club earlier this year because the women in it only wanted to talk surface level. They actually came to rely on my hard-hitting discussion questions, but I bounced after one night they got very pearl clutching with a book that had many sex scenes. It made me realize my other book club was more my speed.
Pearl clutching lol!
This happened to me too – can totally relate!
I had this recently - I got a huge promotion at work, but all everyone wanted to talk about was my brothers engagement 🙄
Congrats on the relaunch! One of the things that’s always stuck out to me about your newsletter oddly enough is your sign off. I’m curious why you always sign off with “k bye”. I think one of the things I most crave in newsletters and online spaces is connection and community, and it always leaves me feeling a little …off? when the newsletter ends in that terse way. Curious to hear your thoughts.
“K” is just the first letter of my name, it’s meant to be funny and alliterative :)
I think of it as balancing the vulnerability of the post! You never know where your online work lands with others and it is always a risk putting yourself out there. I find it endearing!
Maybe it’s time to stop attending baby showers and just send a gift?
I think this would deepen the “us vs. them” narrative which is not something I want; my friendships are extremely important to me, and many (most) of my friends have or want kids! My love language is quality time :)
Yes…I understand. I only said that because it is natural that the conversations at a shower will center around baby topics. Not that you can’t or won’t participate or enjoy those topics, but I’m sure you could find many ways to support friends and be involved in their baby-focused circumstances!
Completely agree, Kelly!