I think there is a bigger issue at play here - people in their 30s wondering how and where to make friends and why it seems like we don’t have as many friends as we expected to have at this age. I am a parent, and for the last several years (both before and after having my daughter) I have complained to my husband that I don’t have the close group of friends I always thought I’d have. I’m starting to wonder if I romanticized friendship as an adult and assumed I’d have a close group of friends but am coming to learn that is harder said than done. I always say, “I just want someone to stop by for a glass of wine on the couch every so often.” But after telling that to my therapist the other day she said, “maybe no one else wants to do that?” It seems like a lot of people in our generation feel this way. Maybe we all watched too many episodes of Friends and assumed we’d have a close group that would weather all of the changes over the years? But really we need to change what we expect from our friendships? Even the author of the cut article admitted that she wanted friends that would take spontaneous vacations with her, when in reality she had no intention of doing so.
I would come by and have a glass of wine on your couch, Alex. I feel the same way about making friends in my 30s. I don’t need people stopping by and staying for 6 hours, but a drink or two to catch up on things every so often sounds so nice.
So much of the conversation here and in the article is the focus on what childless people need to do or feel they should do to support their friends with children. But what about the childless friends? Do we not deserve the attention and intention of conversations/planning that the friends with children get? It seems that I’m always seeing thoughts around what to do to help the friends with children but I’m someone without a child and I still have plenty of things that are stressful and hard in my life (navigating a business and building my career, dealing with financial troubles, etc) that I don’t see there being rhetoric towards that.
I’m not saying that having a business, growing a career, or financial problems without children is as hard or even comparable to having kids but can’t we shift the focus to simply maintaining or navigating friendships through life changes? Let’s all find better ways to continue supporting each other!
Thank you so much for these thoughts! I agree childless friends are often thought of like our lives must be so "easy" and we have so much free time, freedom, etc. when often that isn't the case at all. Agreed that parenthood isn't the only noteworthy life change!
Totally agree. I love supporting my friends with children, made easier because I do genuinely like children. But the more the support (and all the $$$ that often goes with) flows in one direction, and the more my problems and life-events are minimised, the harder it is to feel the friendship is reciprocal. I don't expect a total 50/50 but when my friends with kids can't even remember that I changed jobs in January this year and roll their eyes at me when I invite them to my partner's 30th (rather than just a sorry, can't make it) then that of course creates distance and honestly after a certain point it stops even feeling like a friendship.
Thank you so much for writing about this Kelly! As a 30 year old woman who doesn't have kids yet, but plans to at some point, with friends ranging from single, to married, to pregnant, to already parents, I resonated with so much of this! I agree with you that so much of this comes down to fear and thus defensiveness. One of my best friends just had a baby and I have no idea what the right thing to do is, especially since we live in different states. She's having a whole new experience in her life that I can't relate to, and I also feel worried about saying/doing too much/not enough - which can easily fester on both sides if left unaddressed! But it's hard to know how to address it!
It's so normal for someone who doesn't have kids and/or never wants kids to be bummed that their friendships are changing, yet society at large seems to say that to feel that means you're a cold hearted selfish shrew. I have two friends that are pregnant and won't be able to come to my very low key bachelorette party - which is totally fine! But I would by lying if I said I didn't have a tiny twinge of sadness (since I showed up for both of theirs) and wondering what other changes/impacts will come from kids in the future. And that's with the knowledge that I want to have my own kids in a few years! For my friends who don't plan on having kids, I imagine that must be a much harder pill to swallow, especially since a lot of our friendships are long-distance and the impact of kids on finances and schedules will make visits different and tougher. Of course there is also so much unfair pressure placed on moms to do/be everything, and so there is understandable defensiveness on their part too to feel like they have "ruining all my friendships" added to the list, but I think the vitriol being spewed at the author is unfair and a bit dishonest.
There are certainly going to be many ups and downs trying to wade through all of this in the next few years, and it's so nice to have a thoughtful take from you and a hopefully compassionate comment section to discuss as well. I also found this Culture Study article to be helpful with literal step by step ideas for showing up from both sides of the friendship! https://annehelen.substack.com/p/how-to-show-up-for-your-friends-without
I feel you on the twinge of sadness when you’re doing a thing “after” other people and they can’t or won’t show up for you in the way you showed up for them. We had 4 friends who couldn’t travel to our wedding because they had just had/were on the brink of having a baby that weekend and it really sucked because I went to every single one of their weddings, all around the country.
I am a 37 YO woman who has never wanted kids and been open about that with everyone--my family, my partners, my friends--forever, and I think the biggest impact on my friendships changing over the years has been less about most of them marrying (another thing I don’t care about since I think it doesn’t make a lot of sense unless you plan to have kids--just my opinion!) and starting families, and more about geographic distance. I grew up in Denver, went to college in NYC, moved to LA for grad school, started my career there and then moved back to Denver, then quit my job to travel and plan to move to a tiny town in Alaska (where my boyfriend moved a year ago) in a year or so. I have many people who I consider close or “good” friends, but they’re all over the world at this point (and have been for many years), so if I want to maintain those relationships (I do), I have to be intentional about it. I recognize my life is pretty far off the track of what most would consider “normal,” so my experience may be unique. But it has never occurred to me that my friends’ decisions to start families is the reason our friendship is harder to maintain. Any time I have been where a friend lives, whether a work trip or an intentional visit to see them or passing through on my current travels, my friends have always gone out of their way to host me, make sure we get together for a meal, or otherwise connect. I just went through Chicago and only had a day there, and my friend was out of town at a family wedding with her 3 kids (one is 2 months old), they got home at 10 pm, but her and her husband stayed up til 1 am catching up with me even though he had work and the older 2 had school! And they let me use their house all day while they were gone for laundry and a shower.
I also don’t feel discomfort around kids--I am honestly really good with kids of any age and can seamlessly jump into my friends’ home lives when I’m around. For example, I wake up early and sometimes the kids will roll into the kitchen before my friends and I will ask them what they want for breakfast and make it. Many people have told me I should have kids for this reason (to which I say, being good at something doesn’t mean you should do it). Maybe that has made it easier for me. I don’t mind spending time with my friends and their kids, and at various points I have had super close relationships to certain of my friends’ kids. I don’t know if that comfort can be learned, but it could help.
Anyway, writing this all out made me very very grateful for my friends. Even though I don’t have any “stop by to chat” friends (maybe I will find some in Alaska lol), I feel like all of my friends are genuinely interested in and supportive of my life, even though we are on completely different paths. And I reciprocate that. That’s really what it boils down to, no?
Sorry one other thing that just occurred to me: While I certainly talk to my friends w kids about all sorts of topics related to things I can’t personally identify with (marriage, parenthood, etc), it isn’t the core of our relationship because we don’t have that in common, so I have never felt like that dominated our friendship. Nor do I think any of those friends would expect that from me. They all have mom friends they can dive deep with on that stuff. With me, we can talk about my crazy dating life or my travels or cool new restaurants or whatever. I think this goes back to having different people in your life to meet different needs, and I am not the person they’re going to call when some weird thing is going on with the baby and they don’t know what to do. I guess it can sometimes feel like I’m playing this entertainer role, but it seems more like an opportunity for my friends to reconnect with their pre-parent selves (to the extent they’ve felt they’re losing their identities--many of my friends didn’t change much after kids), which I am happy to provide.
My first hot take is that some friendships aren’t destined for forever. And having or not having kids was never going to change that.
My second hot take is that kids are the first REALLY BIG event to tip the scales. In the lead up, there are normally a series of smaller but still impactful changes. Uni vs. not. Different schools. Different cities. Different time zones. Money vs not money. Different career roles/ opportunities/ responsibilities. Marriage. Singleness. Long-term partners.
Kids turn the friendship on its axis, and everything falls over.
To call our parent friends out on them ‘losing their identity’ is cruel. They haven’t lost it. They are dormant; running on the bare minimum required to stay upright while they give their energy to their family.
Friendship’s ebb and flow as people move through different seasons of their lives; some are warm and happy, some are harder and darker. I would never take it personally if a friend had to take responsibility for their spouse, or a parent. If I can be patient and kind, the friendship will grow again.
In the meantime, I will love my friends kids because I love my friends. I won’t take it personally when she congratulates me a little bit late for my non-child-related success, or cancels plans last minute. I will gladly give 80% of the friendship because she has only so much power to spread around, and I know what I send her way will come back to me. Giving her my energy means she can give to others. I will give her and her children my time, my money, my advice, my spare room, my saved ribbons and wrapping papers.
She is dormant now, but I will be there when she wakes up.
Fuck her friends that dismissed her as lost. Because I knew where she was the whole time.
I know I’ve already commented but can I add a real life situation that just happened to me, this morning? I’m staying away for the week on paid time off and I’m about an hour away from a friend who has just had a new baby. About 8 weeks old now.
Last week we arranged to meet today at lunchtime, halfway between us both, so I could meet the baby and see her - as i’m shortly moving abroad with work.
She has just cancelled on me, 2.5 hours before we’re due to meet.
She said she’s exhausted and she’s never taken the baby that far on her own. (Why didn’t she tell me that in the first place, before agreeing?)
As a consolation, she offered me to go to hers, but that adds 1.5 hours drive onto my day and my journeys? (I live in Europe where anything over 1.5 hours is considered a long journey).
My plan for my day off has been totally changed - I need to check out of my stay shortly.
Sorry but I dont want to add 1.5 hours of driving to my day off - and why is the compromise me coming to her, adding more to my journey, when she knows I’m leaving the country soon and have a list as long as my arm of stuff to do? It just doesn’t seem fair and now I feel a shitty friend for not going to her, but we had a plan that was halfway and she cancelled? Why should I change my time off for her?
This sounds really frustrating, I'm sorry! This is a great example of the kind of frustrations that childless people have about things feeling like they revolve around the other person's schedule. There's often an imbalance and it's definitely okay for you to not want to change your plans at the last minute.
As someone who had a baby 18 months ago, what I have learned is that you really can’t do anything without a strong intention anymore. If you want your friendship, you need to be extremely intentional about it. If you want to play tennis or read a book, you need to be intentional and actually plan out your life so you can make that happen. I can obviously tell this article was written by someone who doesn’t have kids nor wants them because the angle towards children is harsh and honestly offensive (to me). But you cannot deny that you don’t change as a person when you have a baby. It’s inevitable! It’s the best thing that happens to you in your life. It make you a better person. It forces you to be a better person. If a friendship wants to remain on the young 20 something atmosphere and not evolve into something deeper and greater than of course it will fizz out. You wouldn’t have room in your capacity to remain in just a happy hour type of friendship after caring for a child most of your life. Friendship, like marriage, is serving the other person. It’s not meant to be narcissistic and self-fulfilling. It’s about loving your friend and being there for them through hills and valleys. It has to be done with intention and grace especially after one of you has a baby. There are SO many other life altering events that happen besides having kids, if your friendship is only about what you can get out of it or how it serves you and your life, then it will never stand the test of time no matter if kids are involved or not.
Hi Jayme! I just want to offer some very gentle feedback here! I would consider rephrasing to say "having a baby is the best thing that will ever happen to me and it made me a better person." By saying, universally, that having a baby is the best thing that happens to you in your life, it can make childfree or people experiencing infertility feel a little hurt, because it's an experience they'll never have. It's often these little nuances that make a big difference when parents and childfree people are trying to respect, understand, and relate to each other :)
I would also add that having children doesn't inherently make you a better person. People have to choose to be good. Parenthood might make some people better, but that is not a universal experience. If someone feels they are lacking, having a child should not be their go-to fix.
This is so interesting, Jayme! What CAN we do to help our friends, as Kelly asks at the start? What would you want to go into a “class” about this, genuinely? I’d appreciate your thoughts as a child free person who is trying to be a better friend 💖
So sweet! I love that you’re asking that 🩷 I think a big misunderstanding between people who have kids and people who don’t is everyone thinks all we want to do is be “kid-free” or “have a night off”, but to be totally candid, I LOVE including my daughter in everything. Even though it’s way harder to go places and do things I love that she gets to see the world that I live in and experience new things. I think something that goes such a long way is spending time with your friends, and planning outings how you would normally, like going shopping, hiking, biking, eating brunch, etc but including their kid. There is truly nothing better than to see my friends loving on my baby and genuinely wanting to spend time with her and getting to know her. She feels like apart of me that I’m so grateful others love to include and cherish. I think also just having grace on kids goes a long way. Knowing that not every outing is going to work out perfectly or there might be some tantrums along the way and just helping in those moments and being supportive and not feeling embarrassed or ashamed by it. Everyone with a kid knows that tantrums are a developmental milestone that is super important for your child to go through and experience, it’s nothing to be ashamed of. That’s something I never understood until I had a kid of my own! It’s all a learning experience for everyone!
Another perspective here...from a 72 year old grandmother. I got married at 22 and had my first baby at 23 and the second at 26. I met my husband freshman year in college. None of my friends from school...high school and college...were getting married. We had a group of friends who were married and starting families...they were all about 5 years older. Did it change my friend relationships? Of course it did...anyone who says it didn’t or won’t is kidding themselves. I lost friends, even making big efforts to still socialize with single and/or childless friends.
My stepdaughter is 35 and has a friend group of about 10 who met in middle school...some are married, some have kids and others, including my stepdaughter, are single. They have done what seemed impossible to me...they have maintained their close friendships with all of the changes in circumstances. Unusual...but admirable. They have done what many can’t.
In my experience it’s just not possible to go shopping, hiking, biking, eating brunch as soon as there is one or multiple little kids in the friend group. We’ve got a friend with an 8 month old and a friend with a 1.5 year old and their nap schedules never overlap during the day and they both need to be in bed in their separate houses at like 6pm so when we visit their city for a weekend we can see everyone all together for like an hour a day. Otherwise we have to pick which couple we would want to hang out with after bedtime. I love these kids but I also mourn the experience of connecting with all 6 of us adults at the same time.
Oh man, yeah I see you, I know how tough it is, trust me! I look back on the time before all my friends and I got married/had kids and remember staying up until 2am most nights, playing crazy games out in the middle of a pitch black park, or being out literally all day together and never getting sick of each other. Honestly I see those memories as just a beautiful season of life and moments I won’t forgot. Knowing that this next season is going to be just as beautiful looking back on it but for different reasons. Every season of friendship is going to be unique and challenging for different reasons! There is nothing better than a long lasting friendship though, one where you actually do life together and stick with it simply because you care about that person. It takes a lot of planning and intention (talking to those with kids) to do those things I mentioned, but it’s so worth it IMO. I never try to let a schedule or nap time dictate my life or my baby’s life. Kids are a lot more flexible than we give them credit for and sometimes we think they can’t handle something and never give them the opportunity too. Just some encouragement for those with kids!
Hi Jayme, I appreciate hearing your perspective! I want to share a gentle pushback - it sounds to me like you're saying that people without kids are all about happy hours, partying, etc. and that's the reason that they no longer align with their more 'mature' friends with kids. I think that there are certainly people like that, but in my experience friends without kids aren't bummed they can't close down the bar with their friends anymore - they have grown up from that too - but just don't want all of their time with their friends to revolve around the kid of their friend (even if they also love them and do like spending some time with them). For example, a hike without having to go super slow and stop every 5 minutes, breakfast without distractions and baby talk, or a play/movie/art exhibit. I think it's important not to characterize people/women without kids as being "stuck" in a partying or less mature phase, rather than living full adult lives without choosing the cost/time of children - and I say this as someone who is in a heteronormative relationship, having a wedding, and planning on having kids.
Hi Katie, thanks for this - I apologize if it was portrayed that way. I do think sometimes I have a hard time understanding the intentions or needs/wants of people who don't have kids. Especially when what I am hearing on this side is all of the baby bashing, people talk about children like they are the worst thing that happens to you. They will destroy your career, life, friends, family. Like this the article on The Cut, having kids is summed up to "sucking snot out of a tiny nose hole" and then those without kids get to "travel, socialize, work and evolve". You see? On both ends of the spectrum, there is a huge miss understanding. I personally think I have evolved more as a person who has gone through motherhood than a person who has traveled, had a career, etc. I am not bashing those things or saying you can't grow and be a mature adult with those things as your top priority, it's just my own personal experience. What I am trying to say is I don't mean to put motherhood on a pedestal, especially because so many people aren't interested in having kids or struggle to have kids, I think every walk of life is different and all of it can be fulfilling, and all of it should be talked about more! Personally I love to spend time with my baby and my friend's babies, but if you don't then that's something you have to communicate to your friend who is a mother/father because more times than not, their kid is their whole world. If you don't want to spend time with their kids because it's inconvenient for you or not how you want to spend your time, that could be hurtful to them. Just to be clear, I am talking about friendship and genuinely wanting to be a good friend to someone with kids.
That’s totally fair enough, and I understand that! I enjoy doing things with my friends’ kids too - but can I offer a flip side? I dont mind seeing them with their children, but sometimes it’s nice to see my friend on her own, too, so we can properly catch up? She’s distracted when her child is there (understandably), and I get two days off a week. I love my friend but I dont want to go to a kids park / soft play every single time? What I find hard is policing the conversation - depending on the kids age. I totally agree that shopping / brunch is fine and obviously you can bring children, but it is sometimes nice to do that without the child - no offence 😊 my days off are precious and when I’ve had a stressful week, it’s tricky! Completely agree with everything you’ve said, of course! What I try to do is take the kid off my friend and hold them myself, to give her a break and to meet them / understand them more myself- I hope that’s the right thing to do, too💖! We tend to go to a kid-friendly restaurant and try and catch up that way!
Yes I totally get that. It can’t always be the person with kid’s preference or schedule either! It’s a two way friendship and it is tricky when a baby is involved. Something my friends and I have gotten a lot out of is we will have “family nights” at my place (I have always loved to host even before having a kid) and my baby’s bedtime is around 7:30 so we will all be together and hang out from 7-7:30 and then she goes down for bed and then we can break out the wine, catch up undistracted, talk about life or just watch a movie, etc. it has helped so much because we can really see each other this way every night if the week if we wanted and it’s 95% totally kid free. (I love having that 5% though as the mom 🥰) Just another idea if you want more girly time versus kid time! Obviously every kid is different though, some have later bedtimes or aren’t sleep trained yet, etc. totally depends on the person and none of my friends have kids yet so throw in multiple babies to the mix adds a whole other level. Hope that resonates! Love your perspective on it 🤍
I think there is a bigger issue at play here - people in their 30s wondering how and where to make friends and why it seems like we don’t have as many friends as we expected to have at this age. I am a parent, and for the last several years (both before and after having my daughter) I have complained to my husband that I don’t have the close group of friends I always thought I’d have. I’m starting to wonder if I romanticized friendship as an adult and assumed I’d have a close group of friends but am coming to learn that is harder said than done. I always say, “I just want someone to stop by for a glass of wine on the couch every so often.” But after telling that to my therapist the other day she said, “maybe no one else wants to do that?” It seems like a lot of people in our generation feel this way. Maybe we all watched too many episodes of Friends and assumed we’d have a close group that would weather all of the changes over the years? But really we need to change what we expect from our friendships? Even the author of the cut article admitted that she wanted friends that would take spontaneous vacations with her, when in reality she had no intention of doing so.
I would come by and have a glass of wine on your couch, Alex. I feel the same way about making friends in my 30s. I don’t need people stopping by and staying for 6 hours, but a drink or two to catch up on things every so often sounds so nice.
I second this! I love a glass of wine on the couch night.
This was my first gut reaction:
So much of the conversation here and in the article is the focus on what childless people need to do or feel they should do to support their friends with children. But what about the childless friends? Do we not deserve the attention and intention of conversations/planning that the friends with children get? It seems that I’m always seeing thoughts around what to do to help the friends with children but I’m someone without a child and I still have plenty of things that are stressful and hard in my life (navigating a business and building my career, dealing with financial troubles, etc) that I don’t see there being rhetoric towards that.
I’m not saying that having a business, growing a career, or financial problems without children is as hard or even comparable to having kids but can’t we shift the focus to simply maintaining or navigating friendships through life changes? Let’s all find better ways to continue supporting each other!
Thank you so much for these thoughts! I agree childless friends are often thought of like our lives must be so "easy" and we have so much free time, freedom, etc. when often that isn't the case at all. Agreed that parenthood isn't the only noteworthy life change!
Totally agree. I love supporting my friends with children, made easier because I do genuinely like children. But the more the support (and all the $$$ that often goes with) flows in one direction, and the more my problems and life-events are minimised, the harder it is to feel the friendship is reciprocal. I don't expect a total 50/50 but when my friends with kids can't even remember that I changed jobs in January this year and roll their eyes at me when I invite them to my partner's 30th (rather than just a sorry, can't make it) then that of course creates distance and honestly after a certain point it stops even feeling like a friendship.
Yes 100%!! And wouldn't your friends want to feel at least included by you inviting them versus being not invited at all just because they have kids?
Completely agree! I do feel like we’re villianised!
Thank you so much for writing about this Kelly! As a 30 year old woman who doesn't have kids yet, but plans to at some point, with friends ranging from single, to married, to pregnant, to already parents, I resonated with so much of this! I agree with you that so much of this comes down to fear and thus defensiveness. One of my best friends just had a baby and I have no idea what the right thing to do is, especially since we live in different states. She's having a whole new experience in her life that I can't relate to, and I also feel worried about saying/doing too much/not enough - which can easily fester on both sides if left unaddressed! But it's hard to know how to address it!
It's so normal for someone who doesn't have kids and/or never wants kids to be bummed that their friendships are changing, yet society at large seems to say that to feel that means you're a cold hearted selfish shrew. I have two friends that are pregnant and won't be able to come to my very low key bachelorette party - which is totally fine! But I would by lying if I said I didn't have a tiny twinge of sadness (since I showed up for both of theirs) and wondering what other changes/impacts will come from kids in the future. And that's with the knowledge that I want to have my own kids in a few years! For my friends who don't plan on having kids, I imagine that must be a much harder pill to swallow, especially since a lot of our friendships are long-distance and the impact of kids on finances and schedules will make visits different and tougher. Of course there is also so much unfair pressure placed on moms to do/be everything, and so there is understandable defensiveness on their part too to feel like they have "ruining all my friendships" added to the list, but I think the vitriol being spewed at the author is unfair and a bit dishonest.
There are certainly going to be many ups and downs trying to wade through all of this in the next few years, and it's so nice to have a thoughtful take from you and a hopefully compassionate comment section to discuss as well. I also found this Culture Study article to be helpful with literal step by step ideas for showing up from both sides of the friendship! https://annehelen.substack.com/p/how-to-show-up-for-your-friends-without
I feel you on the twinge of sadness when you’re doing a thing “after” other people and they can’t or won’t show up for you in the way you showed up for them. We had 4 friends who couldn’t travel to our wedding because they had just had/were on the brink of having a baby that weekend and it really sucked because I went to every single one of their weddings, all around the country.
Love this list, thank you!
I am a 37 YO woman who has never wanted kids and been open about that with everyone--my family, my partners, my friends--forever, and I think the biggest impact on my friendships changing over the years has been less about most of them marrying (another thing I don’t care about since I think it doesn’t make a lot of sense unless you plan to have kids--just my opinion!) and starting families, and more about geographic distance. I grew up in Denver, went to college in NYC, moved to LA for grad school, started my career there and then moved back to Denver, then quit my job to travel and plan to move to a tiny town in Alaska (where my boyfriend moved a year ago) in a year or so. I have many people who I consider close or “good” friends, but they’re all over the world at this point (and have been for many years), so if I want to maintain those relationships (I do), I have to be intentional about it. I recognize my life is pretty far off the track of what most would consider “normal,” so my experience may be unique. But it has never occurred to me that my friends’ decisions to start families is the reason our friendship is harder to maintain. Any time I have been where a friend lives, whether a work trip or an intentional visit to see them or passing through on my current travels, my friends have always gone out of their way to host me, make sure we get together for a meal, or otherwise connect. I just went through Chicago and only had a day there, and my friend was out of town at a family wedding with her 3 kids (one is 2 months old), they got home at 10 pm, but her and her husband stayed up til 1 am catching up with me even though he had work and the older 2 had school! And they let me use their house all day while they were gone for laundry and a shower.
I also don’t feel discomfort around kids--I am honestly really good with kids of any age and can seamlessly jump into my friends’ home lives when I’m around. For example, I wake up early and sometimes the kids will roll into the kitchen before my friends and I will ask them what they want for breakfast and make it. Many people have told me I should have kids for this reason (to which I say, being good at something doesn’t mean you should do it). Maybe that has made it easier for me. I don’t mind spending time with my friends and their kids, and at various points I have had super close relationships to certain of my friends’ kids. I don’t know if that comfort can be learned, but it could help.
Anyway, writing this all out made me very very grateful for my friends. Even though I don’t have any “stop by to chat” friends (maybe I will find some in Alaska lol), I feel like all of my friends are genuinely interested in and supportive of my life, even though we are on completely different paths. And I reciprocate that. That’s really what it boils down to, no?
Sorry one other thing that just occurred to me: While I certainly talk to my friends w kids about all sorts of topics related to things I can’t personally identify with (marriage, parenthood, etc), it isn’t the core of our relationship because we don’t have that in common, so I have never felt like that dominated our friendship. Nor do I think any of those friends would expect that from me. They all have mom friends they can dive deep with on that stuff. With me, we can talk about my crazy dating life or my travels or cool new restaurants or whatever. I think this goes back to having different people in your life to meet different needs, and I am not the person they’re going to call when some weird thing is going on with the baby and they don’t know what to do. I guess it can sometimes feel like I’m playing this entertainer role, but it seems more like an opportunity for my friends to reconnect with their pre-parent selves (to the extent they’ve felt they’re losing their identities--many of my friends didn’t change much after kids), which I am happy to provide.
My first hot take is that some friendships aren’t destined for forever. And having or not having kids was never going to change that.
My second hot take is that kids are the first REALLY BIG event to tip the scales. In the lead up, there are normally a series of smaller but still impactful changes. Uni vs. not. Different schools. Different cities. Different time zones. Money vs not money. Different career roles/ opportunities/ responsibilities. Marriage. Singleness. Long-term partners.
Kids turn the friendship on its axis, and everything falls over.
To call our parent friends out on them ‘losing their identity’ is cruel. They haven’t lost it. They are dormant; running on the bare minimum required to stay upright while they give their energy to their family.
Friendship’s ebb and flow as people move through different seasons of their lives; some are warm and happy, some are harder and darker. I would never take it personally if a friend had to take responsibility for their spouse, or a parent. If I can be patient and kind, the friendship will grow again.
In the meantime, I will love my friends kids because I love my friends. I won’t take it personally when she congratulates me a little bit late for my non-child-related success, or cancels plans last minute. I will gladly give 80% of the friendship because she has only so much power to spread around, and I know what I send her way will come back to me. Giving her my energy means she can give to others. I will give her and her children my time, my money, my advice, my spare room, my saved ribbons and wrapping papers.
She is dormant now, but I will be there when she wakes up.
Fuck her friends that dismissed her as lost. Because I knew where she was the whole time.
I know I’ve already commented but can I add a real life situation that just happened to me, this morning? I’m staying away for the week on paid time off and I’m about an hour away from a friend who has just had a new baby. About 8 weeks old now.
Last week we arranged to meet today at lunchtime, halfway between us both, so I could meet the baby and see her - as i’m shortly moving abroad with work.
She has just cancelled on me, 2.5 hours before we’re due to meet.
She said she’s exhausted and she’s never taken the baby that far on her own. (Why didn’t she tell me that in the first place, before agreeing?)
As a consolation, she offered me to go to hers, but that adds 1.5 hours drive onto my day and my journeys? (I live in Europe where anything over 1.5 hours is considered a long journey).
My plan for my day off has been totally changed - I need to check out of my stay shortly.
Sorry but I dont want to add 1.5 hours of driving to my day off - and why is the compromise me coming to her, adding more to my journey, when she knows I’m leaving the country soon and have a list as long as my arm of stuff to do? It just doesn’t seem fair and now I feel a shitty friend for not going to her, but we had a plan that was halfway and she cancelled? Why should I change my time off for her?
This sounds really frustrating, I'm sorry! This is a great example of the kind of frustrations that childless people have about things feeling like they revolve around the other person's schedule. There's often an imbalance and it's definitely okay for you to not want to change your plans at the last minute.
Edit - an extra *3 hours of driving for me!
As someone who had a baby 18 months ago, what I have learned is that you really can’t do anything without a strong intention anymore. If you want your friendship, you need to be extremely intentional about it. If you want to play tennis or read a book, you need to be intentional and actually plan out your life so you can make that happen. I can obviously tell this article was written by someone who doesn’t have kids nor wants them because the angle towards children is harsh and honestly offensive (to me). But you cannot deny that you don’t change as a person when you have a baby. It’s inevitable! It’s the best thing that happens to you in your life. It make you a better person. It forces you to be a better person. If a friendship wants to remain on the young 20 something atmosphere and not evolve into something deeper and greater than of course it will fizz out. You wouldn’t have room in your capacity to remain in just a happy hour type of friendship after caring for a child most of your life. Friendship, like marriage, is serving the other person. It’s not meant to be narcissistic and self-fulfilling. It’s about loving your friend and being there for them through hills and valleys. It has to be done with intention and grace especially after one of you has a baby. There are SO many other life altering events that happen besides having kids, if your friendship is only about what you can get out of it or how it serves you and your life, then it will never stand the test of time no matter if kids are involved or not.
Hi Jayme! I just want to offer some very gentle feedback here! I would consider rephrasing to say "having a baby is the best thing that will ever happen to me and it made me a better person." By saying, universally, that having a baby is the best thing that happens to you in your life, it can make childfree or people experiencing infertility feel a little hurt, because it's an experience they'll never have. It's often these little nuances that make a big difference when parents and childfree people are trying to respect, understand, and relate to each other :)
I would also add that having children doesn't inherently make you a better person. People have to choose to be good. Parenthood might make some people better, but that is not a universal experience. If someone feels they are lacking, having a child should not be their go-to fix.
This is so interesting, Jayme! What CAN we do to help our friends, as Kelly asks at the start? What would you want to go into a “class” about this, genuinely? I’d appreciate your thoughts as a child free person who is trying to be a better friend 💖
So sweet! I love that you’re asking that 🩷 I think a big misunderstanding between people who have kids and people who don’t is everyone thinks all we want to do is be “kid-free” or “have a night off”, but to be totally candid, I LOVE including my daughter in everything. Even though it’s way harder to go places and do things I love that she gets to see the world that I live in and experience new things. I think something that goes such a long way is spending time with your friends, and planning outings how you would normally, like going shopping, hiking, biking, eating brunch, etc but including their kid. There is truly nothing better than to see my friends loving on my baby and genuinely wanting to spend time with her and getting to know her. She feels like apart of me that I’m so grateful others love to include and cherish. I think also just having grace on kids goes a long way. Knowing that not every outing is going to work out perfectly or there might be some tantrums along the way and just helping in those moments and being supportive and not feeling embarrassed or ashamed by it. Everyone with a kid knows that tantrums are a developmental milestone that is super important for your child to go through and experience, it’s nothing to be ashamed of. That’s something I never understood until I had a kid of my own! It’s all a learning experience for everyone!
Another perspective here...from a 72 year old grandmother. I got married at 22 and had my first baby at 23 and the second at 26. I met my husband freshman year in college. None of my friends from school...high school and college...were getting married. We had a group of friends who were married and starting families...they were all about 5 years older. Did it change my friend relationships? Of course it did...anyone who says it didn’t or won’t is kidding themselves. I lost friends, even making big efforts to still socialize with single and/or childless friends.
My stepdaughter is 35 and has a friend group of about 10 who met in middle school...some are married, some have kids and others, including my stepdaughter, are single. They have done what seemed impossible to me...they have maintained their close friendships with all of the changes in circumstances. Unusual...but admirable. They have done what many can’t.
In my experience it’s just not possible to go shopping, hiking, biking, eating brunch as soon as there is one or multiple little kids in the friend group. We’ve got a friend with an 8 month old and a friend with a 1.5 year old and their nap schedules never overlap during the day and they both need to be in bed in their separate houses at like 6pm so when we visit their city for a weekend we can see everyone all together for like an hour a day. Otherwise we have to pick which couple we would want to hang out with after bedtime. I love these kids but I also mourn the experience of connecting with all 6 of us adults at the same time.
Oh man, yeah I see you, I know how tough it is, trust me! I look back on the time before all my friends and I got married/had kids and remember staying up until 2am most nights, playing crazy games out in the middle of a pitch black park, or being out literally all day together and never getting sick of each other. Honestly I see those memories as just a beautiful season of life and moments I won’t forgot. Knowing that this next season is going to be just as beautiful looking back on it but for different reasons. Every season of friendship is going to be unique and challenging for different reasons! There is nothing better than a long lasting friendship though, one where you actually do life together and stick with it simply because you care about that person. It takes a lot of planning and intention (talking to those with kids) to do those things I mentioned, but it’s so worth it IMO. I never try to let a schedule or nap time dictate my life or my baby’s life. Kids are a lot more flexible than we give them credit for and sometimes we think they can’t handle something and never give them the opportunity too. Just some encouragement for those with kids!
Hi Jayme, I appreciate hearing your perspective! I want to share a gentle pushback - it sounds to me like you're saying that people without kids are all about happy hours, partying, etc. and that's the reason that they no longer align with their more 'mature' friends with kids. I think that there are certainly people like that, but in my experience friends without kids aren't bummed they can't close down the bar with their friends anymore - they have grown up from that too - but just don't want all of their time with their friends to revolve around the kid of their friend (even if they also love them and do like spending some time with them). For example, a hike without having to go super slow and stop every 5 minutes, breakfast without distractions and baby talk, or a play/movie/art exhibit. I think it's important not to characterize people/women without kids as being "stuck" in a partying or less mature phase, rather than living full adult lives without choosing the cost/time of children - and I say this as someone who is in a heteronormative relationship, having a wedding, and planning on having kids.
Hi Katie, thanks for this - I apologize if it was portrayed that way. I do think sometimes I have a hard time understanding the intentions or needs/wants of people who don't have kids. Especially when what I am hearing on this side is all of the baby bashing, people talk about children like they are the worst thing that happens to you. They will destroy your career, life, friends, family. Like this the article on The Cut, having kids is summed up to "sucking snot out of a tiny nose hole" and then those without kids get to "travel, socialize, work and evolve". You see? On both ends of the spectrum, there is a huge miss understanding. I personally think I have evolved more as a person who has gone through motherhood than a person who has traveled, had a career, etc. I am not bashing those things or saying you can't grow and be a mature adult with those things as your top priority, it's just my own personal experience. What I am trying to say is I don't mean to put motherhood on a pedestal, especially because so many people aren't interested in having kids or struggle to have kids, I think every walk of life is different and all of it can be fulfilling, and all of it should be talked about more! Personally I love to spend time with my baby and my friend's babies, but if you don't then that's something you have to communicate to your friend who is a mother/father because more times than not, their kid is their whole world. If you don't want to spend time with their kids because it's inconvenient for you or not how you want to spend your time, that could be hurtful to them. Just to be clear, I am talking about friendship and genuinely wanting to be a good friend to someone with kids.
That’s totally fair enough, and I understand that! I enjoy doing things with my friends’ kids too - but can I offer a flip side? I dont mind seeing them with their children, but sometimes it’s nice to see my friend on her own, too, so we can properly catch up? She’s distracted when her child is there (understandably), and I get two days off a week. I love my friend but I dont want to go to a kids park / soft play every single time? What I find hard is policing the conversation - depending on the kids age. I totally agree that shopping / brunch is fine and obviously you can bring children, but it is sometimes nice to do that without the child - no offence 😊 my days off are precious and when I’ve had a stressful week, it’s tricky! Completely agree with everything you’ve said, of course! What I try to do is take the kid off my friend and hold them myself, to give her a break and to meet them / understand them more myself- I hope that’s the right thing to do, too💖! We tend to go to a kid-friendly restaurant and try and catch up that way!
Yes I totally get that. It can’t always be the person with kid’s preference or schedule either! It’s a two way friendship and it is tricky when a baby is involved. Something my friends and I have gotten a lot out of is we will have “family nights” at my place (I have always loved to host even before having a kid) and my baby’s bedtime is around 7:30 so we will all be together and hang out from 7-7:30 and then she goes down for bed and then we can break out the wine, catch up undistracted, talk about life or just watch a movie, etc. it has helped so much because we can really see each other this way every night if the week if we wanted and it’s 95% totally kid free. (I love having that 5% though as the mom 🥰) Just another idea if you want more girly time versus kid time! Obviously every kid is different though, some have later bedtimes or aren’t sleep trained yet, etc. totally depends on the person and none of my friends have kids yet so throw in multiple babies to the mix adds a whole other level. Hope that resonates! Love your perspective on it 🤍
Oh that sounds such a good idea, thank you! Going to suggest it to my friends 💖