“Maybe civilization should collapse” - this is where I got to after years of pondering and observing. I like to think of it as an intense but positive evolution more than a collapse, though. Perpetual growth of any kind, population, economic, etc., is not a thing. It’s wild to me that we continue on as if it is. There are better ways to organize ourselves and our societies. Will we get there before we self annihilate? Who knows! Interesting times… great essay thank you :)
'The End of Children' was a great read. In all honestly, the idea out there that people who don't want and will not have kids are selfish, has never really bothered me, because in some ways I think it is true. Like, if society can one day no longer support itself in it's current form because the global birth rate is too low. I don't have kids so a part of (most of?) me doesn't really care, because... I won't be here? I actually find alot of relief and comfort in not having children's future to worry about.
That being said, I don't think that precludes me from being a good human being, not 'for the kids', but just because doing your best to leave the world a better place than you found it is just the right thing to do.
And while I would not say summarily that I don't like kids, I dont really find any interest in literally any 'kid things'. It is obviously a complex topic that the article explores deeply, but some of how they describe the culture of South Korea kind of sounds kind of ideal to me... daily life centred almost exclusively around adults and dogs, lol.
The only thing that bothers me about the idea that child-free people are inherently selfish is that it positions the selfishness on one party. Are some reasons to remain child free born out of selfishness, for some people? Yeah, probably. I personally love the current child-free freedom in my day.
But there are also selfish reasons to have children - desire to see your name/bloodline continues, caving into familial pressure, want of dressing up another doll-like figure. Not every parent takes into account the fact they’re creating another human who deserves to be raised with compassion and treated like an individual. And that usually gets fully ignored in this “cf people are so selfish” argument.
Plus, you’re right - there are many many ways to be a community-oriented selfless person who brings positivity to others in their life. It’s so silly to suggest that none of that matters if someone chooses not to procreate.
It bothers me when clear favorites are unprepared with a speech. Use your moment! Be gracious! I I didn’t love** KC’s speech, but Adrien Brody’s speech was wayyyy worse.
Okay YASSSSS loved this post. I will have to hunker down and read this nyt article as well. I am in the thick of trying to decide to have kids or not 😅 and am going through the baby decision book you recommended a while back. The global element of deciding is one I’ve only thought of as a side note, but it’s another perspective to explore to see if it brings any clarity to my decision. Thank you!!!
I LOVED I Who Have Never Known Men. I listened to the audiobook and it was stunning. I’m so glad the book is getting so much attention right now. It will for sure be a top book of the year for me.
just ordered i who have never known men on thriftbooks! currently reading the left hand of darkness by ursula k le guin, so i guess ill stay with this genre haha. agreed about kieran’s speech. i was on set yesterday chatting with another actress about it - like you have this major platform and you’re going to use it to goad your wife into having more kids? the oscars were quite apolitical in general in felt like, almost like everyone secretly agreed that if ‘no other land’ won they could all pretend nothing is happening.
does your mom ever think that you not wanting kids is something she did? (i’m not saying it is!!!) my mom takes it very personally that i am choosing not to have kids, like she did something wrong. my fiance is so reluctant to have kids and i know it would make him miserable, it’s hard to imagine bringing a kid into the world right now, etc etc, but my mom is like…where did i go wrong? it’s hard to convince her that it’s not her, it’s *gestures all around*
Was just thinking about selfish shallow and self-absorbed the other day! so good. no, I don't think my mom thinks she did anything "wrong" and I don't think she would do anything differently even knowing the outcome. She did tell me that it genuinely never occurred to her that I would decide not to have kids though, which I find super interesting
Oooh good question. I think about this too - my mom is on the "If you want kids great, if you dont, also great!" end of the spectrum, but she often wonders if it was something she did, as neither my brother or I are interested, at all, in having children. We both had a wonderful childhood, have always been close with our parents, no trauma or mental health issues, physically healthy, with supportive long term parters, financially comfortable with successful careers, etc etc. (Of course, none of those things are bad, just pointing out that those are often reasons I hear people choosing not to have kids themselves).
My family is often baffled as to why we are simply not 'kid people'. Always interesting to wonder whether this is a nature thing, a nurture thing, or some combination of both.
my brother and i are the same way! we did have some not so great things in our childhood, but we both turned out to be really decent people despite those things, and i think that’s a success. my fiance had an amazing childhood and doesn’t want to be a parent - largely because he knows what it takes to be a good parent! we both read that book kelly recommended, shallow selfish self absorbed, and a lot of it spoke to us.
“Maybe civilization should collapse” - this is where I got to after years of pondering and observing. I like to think of it as an intense but positive evolution more than a collapse, though. Perpetual growth of any kind, population, economic, etc., is not a thing. It’s wild to me that we continue on as if it is. There are better ways to organize ourselves and our societies. Will we get there before we self annihilate? Who knows! Interesting times… great essay thank you :)
'The End of Children' was a great read. In all honestly, the idea out there that people who don't want and will not have kids are selfish, has never really bothered me, because in some ways I think it is true. Like, if society can one day no longer support itself in it's current form because the global birth rate is too low. I don't have kids so a part of (most of?) me doesn't really care, because... I won't be here? I actually find alot of relief and comfort in not having children's future to worry about.
That being said, I don't think that precludes me from being a good human being, not 'for the kids', but just because doing your best to leave the world a better place than you found it is just the right thing to do.
And while I would not say summarily that I don't like kids, I dont really find any interest in literally any 'kid things'. It is obviously a complex topic that the article explores deeply, but some of how they describe the culture of South Korea kind of sounds kind of ideal to me... daily life centred almost exclusively around adults and dogs, lol.
The only thing that bothers me about the idea that child-free people are inherently selfish is that it positions the selfishness on one party. Are some reasons to remain child free born out of selfishness, for some people? Yeah, probably. I personally love the current child-free freedom in my day.
But there are also selfish reasons to have children - desire to see your name/bloodline continues, caving into familial pressure, want of dressing up another doll-like figure. Not every parent takes into account the fact they’re creating another human who deserves to be raised with compassion and treated like an individual. And that usually gets fully ignored in this “cf people are so selfish” argument.
Plus, you’re right - there are many many ways to be a community-oriented selfless person who brings positivity to others in their life. It’s so silly to suggest that none of that matters if someone chooses not to procreate.
It bothers me when clear favorites are unprepared with a speech. Use your moment! Be gracious! I I didn’t love** KC’s speech, but Adrien Brody’s speech was wayyyy worse.
Okay YASSSSS loved this post. I will have to hunker down and read this nyt article as well. I am in the thick of trying to decide to have kids or not 😅 and am going through the baby decision book you recommended a while back. The global element of deciding is one I’ve only thought of as a side note, but it’s another perspective to explore to see if it brings any clarity to my decision. Thank you!!!
I LOVED I Who Have Never Known Men. I listened to the audiobook and it was stunning. I’m so glad the book is getting so much attention right now. It will for sure be a top book of the year for me.
Kelly I always love your book recs! 🤓📚💚
just ordered i who have never known men on thriftbooks! currently reading the left hand of darkness by ursula k le guin, so i guess ill stay with this genre haha. agreed about kieran’s speech. i was on set yesterday chatting with another actress about it - like you have this major platform and you’re going to use it to goad your wife into having more kids? the oscars were quite apolitical in general in felt like, almost like everyone secretly agreed that if ‘no other land’ won they could all pretend nothing is happening.
does your mom ever think that you not wanting kids is something she did? (i’m not saying it is!!!) my mom takes it very personally that i am choosing not to have kids, like she did something wrong. my fiance is so reluctant to have kids and i know it would make him miserable, it’s hard to imagine bringing a kid into the world right now, etc etc, but my mom is like…where did i go wrong? it’s hard to convince her that it’s not her, it’s *gestures all around*
Was just thinking about selfish shallow and self-absorbed the other day! so good. no, I don't think my mom thinks she did anything "wrong" and I don't think she would do anything differently even knowing the outcome. She did tell me that it genuinely never occurred to her that I would decide not to have kids though, which I find super interesting
Oooh good question. I think about this too - my mom is on the "If you want kids great, if you dont, also great!" end of the spectrum, but she often wonders if it was something she did, as neither my brother or I are interested, at all, in having children. We both had a wonderful childhood, have always been close with our parents, no trauma or mental health issues, physically healthy, with supportive long term parters, financially comfortable with successful careers, etc etc. (Of course, none of those things are bad, just pointing out that those are often reasons I hear people choosing not to have kids themselves).
My family is often baffled as to why we are simply not 'kid people'. Always interesting to wonder whether this is a nature thing, a nurture thing, or some combination of both.
my brother and i are the same way! we did have some not so great things in our childhood, but we both turned out to be really decent people despite those things, and i think that’s a success. my fiance had an amazing childhood and doesn’t want to be a parent - largely because he knows what it takes to be a good parent! we both read that book kelly recommended, shallow selfish self absorbed, and a lot of it spoke to us.
Yes I really enjoyed that book too, many of the essays absolutely resonated!
Love it + what you're encouraging. yes, yes, yes, and so well said!